Most ridiculous puzzle I've ever seen • page 2/2 • General Chess Discussion • lichess.org

biscuitfiend edited

There is nothing ridiculous about this puzzle. For starters, White is clearly winning, because Black's Bishop has no squares. All White needs to do is attack the Bishop, when the pawn majority will tell, or else figure out some way to promote a pawn. The h-pawn is never worth worrying about, because White's King can catch it without difficulty.

The first move Nd8 is the most obvious move to consider, because it creates a game winning threat of capturing the Black c-pawn. Black only has one way to meet this threat, which is ...Na5. Then Ne6 is the only logical second move (the threat was parried, so the Knight would rather be somewhere other than d8, and there are no other pieces worth moving), and it happens to create another game winning threat (Nf8+ followed by Nd7, hitting the Bishop). So Black's only response is to move the King, and then what? Now you notice that Nc7 is threatening Na6, winning the Bishop, but the only way to parry that is to take the Knight, which would be suicide because there is no way of stopping the pawn.

The whole thing can be seen from the starting position, because every move is forced and White only moves one piece. But even if you don't see it all from the starting position, you can just make the "obvious looking" moves (one-move threats) and the puzzle solves itself.

There is nothing ridiculous about this puzzle. For starters, White is clearly winning, because Black's Bishop has no squares. All White needs to do is attack the Bishop, when the pawn majority will tell, or else figure out some way to promote a pawn. The h-pawn is never worth worrying about, because White's King can catch it without difficulty. The first move Nd8 is the most obvious move to consider, because it creates a game winning threat of capturing the Black c-pawn. Black only has one way to meet this threat, which is ...Na5. Then Ne6 is the only logical second move (the threat was parried, so the Knight would rather be somewhere other than d8, and there are no other pieces worth moving), and it happens to create another game winning threat (Nf8+ followed by Nd7, hitting the Bishop). So Black's only response is to move the King, and then what? Now you notice that Nc7 is threatening Na6, winning the Bishop, but the only way to parry that is to take the Knight, which would be suicide because there is no way of stopping the pawn. The whole thing can be seen from the starting position, because every move is forced and White only moves one piece. But even if you don't see it all from the starting position, you can just make the "obvious looking" moves (one-move threats) and the puzzle solves itself.

sleeping_giant01 edited

@biscuitfiend First, how is white clearly winning? He is down a piece, his b-pawn is going nowhere, and if he does nothing, black just pushes his h-pawn and makes a queen. The fact that the bishop has no squares seems quite irrelevant until you find this weird maneuver that somehow wins it. I even considered Nd8, but I was like "okay, I attack the pawn, black defends it with na6, and I'm still losing." The only logical thing I could see to do was make a central breakthrough with f3 and e4, which I tried. Ne6 makes no sense, because black plays kf6, and white has just wasted time. If Nd8 doesn't win, it loses, and I didn't see how it won. Or maybe I'm just bad at chess, idk.

biscuitfiend edited

@sleeping_giant01 White is not really down a piece, as I addressed in that same sentence. Black's Bishop is completely hemmed in by White's pawns, which means the Bishop is useless. I don't understand what possible thought process leads you to make a statement like "The fact that the Bishop has no squares seems quite irrelevant"; how exactly do you go about evaluating the worth of a piece? Certainly you are not suggesting something like "a Bishop is worth 3 points no matter where it is or what's going on", which is obviously ridiculous.

I explained Ne6 quite clearly. It threatens Nf8+ with Nd7 to follow.

In short, it sounds like your calculation skills need work. The thought process you are describing is "I make a move, he makes a move, oh well, guess I'll stop there". You need to learn to stop and look at what happens next. You literally just said, "Ne6 makes no sense, because black plays kf6, and white has just wasted time", which shows that after Kf6, you have stopped looking for things to do. That's exactly what's wrong with your thought process here, and it's the only reason you found the puzzle hard (and I guarantee you that it costs you games). Instead of asking "okay, they have obvious response X, and then what can I do in that position?", you just gave up! In fact, if you had looked, you would have seen Nc7, as I explained in the previous post.

@sleeping_giant01 White is not really down a piece, as I addressed in that same sentence. Black's Bishop is completely hemmed in by White's pawns, which means the Bishop is useless. I don't understand what possible thought process leads you to make a statement like "The fact that the Bishop has no squares seems quite irrelevant"; how exactly do you go about evaluating the worth of a piece? Certainly you are not suggesting something like "a Bishop is worth 3 points no matter where it is or what's going on", which is obviously ridiculous. I explained Ne6 quite clearly. It threatens Nf8+ with Nd7 to follow. In short, it sounds like your calculation skills need work. The thought process you are describing is "I make a move, he makes a move, oh well, guess I'll stop there". You need to learn to stop and look at what happens next. You literally just said, "Ne6 makes no sense, because black plays kf6, and white has just wasted time", which shows that after Kf6, you have stopped looking for things to do. That's exactly what's wrong with your thought process here, and it's the only reason you found the puzzle hard (and I guarantee you that it costs you games). Instead of asking "okay, they have obvious response X, and then what can I do in that position?", you just gave up! In fact, if you had looked, you would have seen Nc7, as I explained in the previous post.

traveller2

@sleeping_giant01 I realized what I need to do in order to win and found a path for the knight to get there

sleeping_giant01

@biscuitfiend Yeah, that's one of my problem areas. I'm working on it

Alientcp

edited

Solved in the first try. Still is a good puzzle.

@sleeping_giant01 Was white down? I did not even counted. The position was winning at sight and it was quite obvious why.

The pieces have a set value, or a general value as reference to measure who has more odds of winning, but remeber that there are 3 things that have value and are all interchangeable. Time (or tempo), space/position and material.

You can sacrifice a material to gain tempi or position, you can sac position to get material or tempi, you can sac tempi to get material or position, you can use any combination and deep analysis and skill is needed to accurately measure what is exactly the worth of them in the particular position you are analyzing.

To any experience player, a pawn in the 6th or 7th rank that are not opposed have value greater than almost any piece in the game. and a bishop with no prospects is worth as much as a pawn, if not less because some times its actually better to not have one at all/

So, space advantage + pawn advanced with little to no opposition + a way to get rid of the bishop + chances to attack on the opposite side vs a glorified pawn a knight with poses no treat and a king out of position. Abstract math, but still winning despite the material advantage.

A rook trapped in the corner with no prospects of helping at all is indistinguishably from a missing rook.

Solved in the first try. Still is a good puzzle. @sleeping_giant01 Was white down? I did not even counted. The position was winning at sight and it was quite obvious why. The pieces have a set value, or a general value as reference to measure who has more odds of winning, but remeber that there are 3 things that have value and are all interchangeable. Time (or tempo), space/position and material. You can sacrifice a material to gain tempi or position, you can sac position to get material or tempi, you can sac tempi to get material or position, you can use any combination and deep analysis and skill is needed to accurately measure what is exactly the worth of them in the particular position you are analyzing. To any experience player, a pawn in the 6th or 7th rank that are not opposed have value greater than almost any piece in the game. and a bishop with no prospects is worth as much as a pawn, if not less because some times its actually better to not have one at all/ So, space advantage + pawn advanced with little to no opposition + a way to get rid of the bishop + chances to attack on the opposite side vs a glorified pawn a knight with poses no treat and a king out of position. Abstract math, but still winning despite the material advantage. A rook trapped in the corner with no prospects of helping at all is indistinguishably from a missing rook.

biscuitfiend edited

Now if you want to see a ridiculous puzzle, then I present you this: https://lichess.org/training/iRJ9N

traveller2

@biscuitfiend I cant even believe this arrived from an actual game

sleeping_giant01

@biscuitfiend solved! this position was crazy, but it actually wasn't too difficult because there was a concrete problem to solve. To avoid getting mated, you need to eliminate one of the attacking pieces. But since Rxh7? immediately loses to Nxc4+ and b6+, you throw in Bxb2+ so the queen defends c4, and then play Rxh7 so that Qxg6 can be met with axb4+ and black has a decisive counterattack. Great puzzle!!